Where's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
It's an interesting question from a fan/rules perspective but imagine you were Vaval back there trying to secure the ball, get your head back up, find your blocks, your lanes, etc.
He isn't going to be able to determine if the tip of the nose of the ball crossed the goal line or not. And if he takes the ball from inside the field of play and gets tackled or goes down in the end zone then it's a safety so it's never going to be coached like that.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2025, 06:40:57 AMWhere's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
My thoughts (without looking at the rulebook):
Question 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines. No special end zone for a punt or anything else. So, yes he could have conceded a single
if the ball didn't cross the goal after he
touched it.
Bonus question: It's all about where the ball is when he first touches it. Where he is is irrelevant. Again, as long as any part of the ball doesn't cross the goal line after he touches it (even if the ball is on the ground).
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2025, 06:40:57 AMWhere's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
The plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.
Quote from: dd on August 26, 2025, 02:54:32 PMThe plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.
It's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.
Quote from: bomb squad on August 26, 2025, 02:53:03 PMQuestion 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines.
If true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?
Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line. When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play. I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term). Right?
But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over. Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL. QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL? Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?
I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.
But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL? And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".
(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 26, 2025, 06:16:55 PMIt's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.
that's what o mean you have to break the plane from the inside of the goal line or field side of the goal line
Quote from: TecnoGenius on Today at 02:36:10 AMIf true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?
Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line. When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play. I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term). Right?
But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over. Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL. QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL? Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?
I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.
But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL? And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".
(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)
on any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way
Quote from: dd on Today at 03:05:18 AMon any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way
Yes. But my point is, what is done if it's inside the one... where the ball is MOVED and NOT placed where it goes dead. The question is: does it go nose to the goal-area edge of the 1YL, or nose to the field edge of the 1YL... or does it depend on which team has the ball (which way the ball is driving)?