I'll just come out and say it. I waited 2 games, I can't wait anymore:
Randolph at RG basically fixed our OL woes overnight. Especially in pass protection.
Remember the last 2 games that Neufeld (then Eli) played? Remember how opponents got through the RG spot all night(s) long? Remember our general OL woes the first 6-7 weeks? Ya, I remember.
Randolph dresses in his first game and suddenly our OL is lights out? Pass pro about as good as you could reasonably desire. Run blocking chugging nicely. Ya, are we ready to admit going 3 IMP OL was a good idea? It's Bond 2.0!
The counter-arguments are:
1) 2 games are not enough to really tell?
2) Both games were against the same team; maybe BC has a really bad DL?
3) ?
Discuss.
If Randolph is still lights out vs HAM and then (gasp) SSK... does Neufeld stay benched? Or maybe swap Neufeld and Dobson? Trade options? (!!)
Given all of our NAT D weapons, there is no requirement forcing us to go 3 NAT OL again, at least not this season (barring injuries). If Ford or Kramdi walks in FA, 2025 could be a different matter.
Pleasantly surprised by how well he has fit in
Lofton has also settled in
It would appear with 2 games of data that this change on the o-line has produced positive results.
Maybe. Keep in mind that we started the season with a new starting LG and RT. It took time for them to settle in. We had musical doors at receiver due to injury and were starting 3 rookie receivers.
Our defence has improved every game and forces the opponent off the field. Bombers are winning TOP.
I don't want to get lynched for this... I think Neufeld was the problem more than Randolph was the solution.
Neufeld will be 36 years old in September, and has struggled keeping guys in front of him this season. I really like Neufeld, and he adds a little bit of grit to our OL. I just don't think he can hang with the other OL in this league.
Randolph also has been great!
I do worry a little bit about our short yardage crew. Another TO on downs after a failed 3rd down.
My view is half a season of coaching did the trick, they've had time to gel. We don't have an allstar studded line anymore but if they play together we can get it done. Kudos to Randolph though. Coming in healthy, fresh and doing his job.
A reminder that the O-line did not look good to start the last two seasons. A lot of over the hill talk then.
They figured it out eventually.
Yes O line seems better with him in. And Lofton... I try to watch the lines, tough cause it happens so fast, but I don't think many defenders are getting by him. Lofton's play is a Big win for the team.
Also..New Receivers and Zach getting familiar. New receivers not needing to be told where to line up probably helps too.
Too bad we don't have the time from snap to release stats.
The short yardage.... Like everything else, this will be fixed up. That's the way this team works.
It's better but it's not significantly better. I wouldn't say anything was "fixed overnight". The tape from last night's BC game would be in the bottom two or three performances from the line last year or the year before that.
Replacing Neuf was a much needed move.
Quote from: TBURGESS on August 19, 2024, 02:44:17 PMReplacing Neuf was a much needed move.
When he's back from injury, it will be nice to know we have someone capable in his old spot and can use him in a backup or load management capacity (not suggesting an OL gets subbed in and out during the game*)
Randolph looks like a solid addition to the O-line. There's still a ton of room for improvement, though.
Quote from: LXTSN on August 19, 2024, 01:23:00 PMI do worry a little bit about our short yardage crew. Another TO on downs after a failed 3rd down.
If Streveler doesn't trip like he did, they convert on that SY play.
Quote from: LXTSN on August 19, 2024, 01:23:00 PMI don't want to get lynched for this... I think Neufeld was the problem more than Randolph was the solution.
Neufeld will be 36 years old in September, and has struggled keeping guys in front of him this season. I really like Neufeld, and he adds a little bit of grit to our OL. I just don't think he can hang with the other OL in this league.
Randolph also has been great!
I do worry a little bit about our short yardage crew. Another TO on downs after a failed 3rd down.
I agree with this. Eventually age catches up.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on August 19, 2024, 03:14:58 PMI agree with this. Eventually age catches up.
Add me to the list.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on August 19, 2024, 03:14:58 PMI agree with this. Eventually age catches up.
Time is undefeated. It beats us all.
Quote from: LXTSN on August 19, 2024, 01:23:00 PMI don't want to get lynched for this... I think Neufeld was the problem more than Randolph was the solution.
Neufeld will be 36 years old in September, and has struggled keeping guys in front of him this season. I really like Neufeld, and he adds a little bit of grit to our OL. I just don't think he can hang with the other OL in this league.
Randolph also has been great!
I do worry a little bit about our short yardage crew. Another TO on downs after a failed 3rd down.
I'll wait to see, Neufeld was an all-star last season and is on the 6-game right now so it's likely an injury was influencing his play. He's been the heart and soul of the O-line for many years and deserves the chance to compete again once he's healthy. If nothing else I think he's still better than Dobson who is relatively immobile and often looks lost, huge downgrade from Gray.
Some of the injuries this season have forced us to audition some fresh blood, which may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.
I think that Randolph has solidified our line to the point that it's at least passable. They did a great job of handling the 6-man rush on that long pass to Demski. I'm not sure that we couldn't improve on Lofton, but he's not terrible right now.
I don't think PN53 is done by any means. I do believe that his injuries where a big part of his inconsistent play. But, Randolph has played very well so far and he seems to work well with Ko-man.
Well I recall saying several games ago the O-line needed improvement for the offence to improve, but other negative Nellies said it was fine...3 wins in a row and the tune changes now?! ;) O-Line is ALWAYS the driving force of an offence. You have no o-line, you are toast and your QB is scrambling for his life or ducking sacks.
Quote from: LXTSN on August 19, 2024, 01:23:00 PMI don't want to get lynched for this... I think Neufeld was the problem more than Randolph was the solution.
This is what I feared and didn't want to believe. The ire was usually directed at Dobson/Ko-man/Lofton, when maybe it was Neufeld?
I will add that on the few games I graded out the OL this season, Neuf was never the problem, until 2 weeks before he was IR'd. But those 2-3 games before his IR he was horrible. So there could be some merit to him having been injured for weeks before his IR.
However, the fact remains that the entire unit was iffy-to-bad for most weeks before Randolph was installed. Then all of a sudden the unit is good?
Quote from: Waffler on August 19, 2024, 01:34:16 PMMy view is half a season of coaching did the trick, they've had time to gel. We don't have an allstar studded line anymore but if they play together we can get it done. Kudos to Randolph though. Coming in healthy, fresh and doing his job.
Except what we've seen is the exact opposite: our longest-service keystone NAT slammed to the IR and we bring in an unknown, never-started "nobody" IMP and suddenly we're good now? It's like the opposite of "gel" because Randolph had zero benefit of the weeks 1-9 "gelling period".
If anything, our OL should have been
worse if "gel" had been the major problem?
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 19, 2024, 02:40:58 PMIt's better but it's not significantly better. I wouldn't say anything was "fixed overnight". The tape from last night's BC game would be in the bottom two or three performances from the line last year or the year before that.
I'm in my rewatch of the game and the few times Zach is sacked or severely pressured he often was just holding it too long (way over 2.7s). There were very few outright busts like we got earlier in the year.
BC may have been going for coverage sacks.
Oline has to gel and it's pretty solid now.
The old guys still got it just like Zach and Willie, well seasoned but not over salted.
Quote from: Pigskin on August 19, 2024, 04:58:05 PMI don't think PN53 is done by any means. I do believe that his injuries where a big part of his inconsistent play. But, Randolph has played very well so far and he seems to work well with Ko-man.
I rest assured knowing that MOS/Buck/etc probably know what the real deal is and who the real weak link is. Ko-man is likely safe & stuck at C because he's the best option right now (Eli too small), but there may be a "guard controversy" when Neufeld is healthy, and who of the 3 viable ones is benched will be very telling.
An "out" would be to take the odd man out and use him as 7th instead of Wallace. Dobson could do that... but it would look very odd for Neuf!
Mafia can play coy when Neuf is back by making him the 7th and putting out excuses that they're easing him back in / still nicked / etc.
P.S. Randolph getting the start and having it stick so far means that Eli is nothing more than a backup C and 6th OL. Any thoughts of him being the next OG are out the window. And Wallace clearly has been deemed needing more dev time (as he should as a rookie).
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 19, 2024, 08:08:15 PMThis is what I feared and didn't want to believe. The ire was usually directed at Dobson/Ko-man/Lofton, when maybe it was Neufeld?
I will add that on the few games I graded out the OL this season, Neuf was never the problem, until 2 weeks before he was IR'd. But those 2-3 games before his IR he was horrible. So there could be some merit to him having been injured for weeks before his IR.
However, the fact remains that the entire unit was iffy-to-bad for most weeks before Randolph was installed. Then all of a sudden the unit is good?
I recall some criticism direct at Paddy earlier this season. Perhaps not commensurate, though. I remember thinking that maybe he was in significant decline.
All of this is OK of course. He was so good for so many years, and for sure I still want him around and used in a way that maximizes what he still has to give and set reasonable expectations.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 19, 2024, 08:10:33 PMExcept what we've seen is the exact opposite: our longest-service keystone NAT slammed to the IR and we bring in an unknown, never-started "nobody" IMP and suddenly we're good now? It's like the opposite of "gel" because Randolph had zero benefit of the weeks 1-9 "gelling period".
If anything, our OL should have been worse if "gel" had been the major problem?
He's been here the whole year practicing with the guys and learning assignments. How many practices and meetings is that? That's where they gel, not during a game. They have been a group for a few months now. I would understand your argument if he was airlifted in last week.
Quote from: Waffler on August 19, 2024, 09:33:30 PMHe's been here the whole year practicing with the guys and learning assignments. How many practices and meetings is that? That's where they gel, not during a game. They have been a group for a few months now. I would understand your argument if he was airlifted in last week.
Practice and game speed / conditions are not close to the same thing. He also hasn't been working with the # 1 OL most of the season in practice.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 19, 2024, 09:37:17 PMPractice and game speed / conditions are not close to the same thing. He also hasn't been working with the # 1 OL most of the season in practice.
During scrimmages yes, but they work on drills as a group all getting coached up together. They should all be learning the same thing. Yes, in game mayhem is one thing you can't practice.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 19, 2024, 08:17:29 PMI rest assured knowing that MOS/Buck/etc probably know what the real deal is and who the real weak link is. Ko-man is likely safe & stuck at C because he's the best option right now (Eli too small), but there may be a "guard controversy" when Neufeld is healthy, and who of the 3 viable ones is benched will be very telling.
An "out" would be to take the odd man out and use him as 7th instead of Wallace. Dobson could do that... but it would look very odd for Neuf!
Mafia can play coy when Neuf is back by making him the 7th and putting out excuses that they're easing him back in / still nicked / etc.
P.S. Randolph getting the start and having it stick so far means that Eli is nothing more than a backup C and 6th OL. Any thoughts of him being the next OG are out the window. And Wallace clearly has been deemed needing more dev time (as he should as a rookie).
The Bombers no longer have the best O-line in the league but they do have a very stable, affordable group of guys, other than Stanley none of them are earning above average wages for O-linemen. Bryant can play as long as he wants with perhaps a reduction in salary, don't see anyone else rising up enough this year to warrant much F.A. interest from other teams.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 19, 2024, 09:56:09 PMdon't see anyone else rising up enough this year to warrant much F.A. interest from other teams.
Haha, ya! That's the bright side of a "good enough" OL, eh? No one steals your guys. Might be the first year in many where we don't lose an OL to FA because of $$.
Quote from: DM83 on August 19, 2024, 08:51:13 PMHow exactly would the coach design a play for a coverage sack?
That's nonsense
You mean a D coach designing a coverage sack? I would think that is the plan for every passing play!
Or you mean an O coach designing around a coverage sack? Ya, they hope that doesn't happen. However, you can design outlets for QBs on passing plays with blanket coverage, like TE sneak-outs, RB dumps, or QB runs.
One would hope we have given Zach plans on what to do in a blanket coverage situation, and not just leave him to wing it and pray.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 19, 2024, 06:10:46 PMWell I recall saying several games ago the O-line needed improvement for the offence to improve, but other negative Nellies said it was fine...3 wins in a row and the tune changes now?! ;) O-Line is ALWAYS the driving force of an offence. You have no o-line, you are toast and your QB is scrambling for his life or ducking sacks.
I don't recall anyone saying the Oline was fine. I think we knew it needed improvement.
I don't know enough about player development to have a qualified opinion on the Oline. What little I do know is that it has a lot to do with footwork and that every position on that Oline is different. It's not like you can plug-and-play different players into different spots. I'm hoping that players that have struggled earlier this season are developing and getting better.
Randolph has been a big help with pass protection. Keeping Zach clean and happy is important to our continued success. Here's a shout out to the Oline. Keep her going boys!
Neuf was hurting and I'm glad he's getting the time he needs to recover. I'm sure we're going to need him down the stretch.
Quote from: J5V on August 20, 2024, 01:39:49 AMI don't recall anyone saying the Oline was fine. I think we knew it needed improvement.
Ya, the divide here was mostly "OL is hopeless & doomed" vs "OL needs a piece or two or more gel-time to improve". Maybe that's what ichabod is referring to. No one was saying our OL was a league-best.
Can someone who knows speak to my other question?
Is BC's DL any good or do they suck? I think I recall someone saying somewhere their DL is undersized? The answer to this question is very important to properly evaluating our magically improved OL.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 20, 2024, 01:51:05 AMCan someone who knows speak to my other question?
Is BC's DL any good or do they suck? I think I recall someone saying somewhere their DL is undersized? The answer to this question is very important to properly evaluating our magically improved OL.
They don't suck, they may perform average overall as a whole but they have a couple of potential league allstars in Teuhema, Covington and Robertson.
Quote from: DM83 on August 20, 2024, 05:12:38 PMBut I would like to explore the question of which QB is best under pressure. Someone said a cool summations of QB play....."look to your first read, and then if it's not there ..run."
Now we all listen to NFL broadcasters, who seem to be of the 1960's QB mantra of a QB staying in the pocket, and waiting for guys to break open. Then they found a few guys who would escape the pocket and run. Today the best guys are the ones who buy time and find guys running open referencing the scramble rule.
Ya, but in the CFL some of the very best QBs in the last decade were pocket-mostly guys. Ray, Zach, Bo.
Durant and Burris could move when they needed to, but more power runners than nimble navigators.
The Mahomes-type guy has yet to truly dominate the CFL. VAJ and Rourke may qualify, and maybe Cody (as the very-poor-man's Mahomes).
I think in the CFL it's enough if you can have a good sense of pressure and find the sneak out hole to reestablish the pocket 8Y away. However, recently Ds have been bringing in a LB to speed rush the QB if he escapes the pocket. I think they started doing this specifically to stop Zach, but now apply it in all games.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 20, 2024, 03:33:20 PMThey don't suck, they may perform average overall as a whole but they have a couple of potential league allstars in Teuhema, Covington and Robertson.
True. Teuhema looks like a monster. I think they really miss Betts though. Surely if Betts shakes free from the NFL BC couldn't possibly afford him now... right?