I get there is some shock and frustration with a crashing to earth season after 3 or 4 seasons of pretty dominant football.
The core that propelled us to four straight Grey Cups has aged and regressed or moved on.
I don't fault Walters or O'Shea for sticking with the guys who went on the run but it is pretty apparent we'll be buyers this off season and a more prominent changing of the guard is in order.
The good news is unlike the long drought we've got a winning culture, great place to play and an engaged fan base.
Here are some things that should help:
Bighill is two years past his best before and a switch at middle linebacker next year will end up being a massive upgrade even if it's simply to younger, more athletic and less experienced.
With the emergence of Pokey we can jettison one of Schoen or Lawler. Backfill with another American for a significant sms savings.
With a significant reduction in statistics and the eye test, Collaros is going to be making $100,000 less. They can use some cap room at the end of this season to make it more palatable, give him a small bonus against 2024 sms and restructure 2025.
Alexander is no longer an elite safety primarily because he can't cover the ground he used to. We'll save a bit of cash by playing a Canadian there in 2025 and be able to reallocate the ratio elsewhere if necessary.
Jake Thomas is far from the worst of the old guard at the moment (which is kind of surprising) but he'll got caught in the sweep and he deserves a hero's send off.
We'll see how the rest of the season plays out for Willie. Still a good player but no longer taking over games and it's not just because he gets lots of attention. Probably has another year in him but not at the current price tag.
Along the offensive line Chris Kolenkowski needs to go back to the 6 lineman for sure. We got good value out of him but it's an easy and realistic upgrade.
With the extra sms we can shop for offensive and defensive line upgrades in free agency.
My advice? Enjoy the old guys. We're not a Grey Cup team this year but we've still got some of that core of guys that accomplished something very special in Winnipeg. They won't be here next year and it's going to take a rework to get us back to the top of the mountain.
We have found some answers: Garbutt and Pokey are both the real deal. Clercius is getting some good experience and could project to something like a Wolitarsky. Dobson has established himself as legitimate guard. Bonds is a good value corner and Ford is talented especially for a Canadian playing corner.
Wilson isn't the end all be all at reciever, and I wouldn't be getting rid of either schoen or Lawler.
Bighill on the other hand, gone. He's served us well, was key in turning the franchise around but what was once our biggest defensive asset has become our biggest defensive e liability. Missed tackles and in the trail position way too much. Don't make the big plays like he used to and hasn't for over a year.
Keep in mind we have already made 11 changes in starting positions on offence, defence and ST (perhaps even more!) this year.
And now it is suggested we replace Schoen or Lawler as well!
Changes will be made but we need to seriously consider that we are only roughly a third of the way through the season and many of the aforementioned players are still working to fit in on this team.
We are seeing the hiccups of such a major change in personnel. This season needs to play out to see who stays and who needs to go.
I Am not sure many of the old "timers" will be jettisoned until AFTER next season unless they truly want to retire or are so injured they can't play anymore. The HOME GREY CUP in 2025 is what I said they were truly gearing up for this season in the PRE-SEASON already. Not to write this year off that early, but next year is the golden nugget if you ask me. That is when the Bombers can pocket a nice stability fund hopefully. This season's first priority was setting up for next season I think in the bowels of PAS! ;)
If you are playing 10 Canadian starters and you can't find at least ONE BIG BULL DL guy, something seems off with that. There is little pressure up the middle on QB's and the run stopping game is not the best either. There was that 6'9" monster that Toronto let go....he would have fit the bill probably beyond a Stove even! :( They have flexibility, WHY NOT USE IT? Loyalty is nice, but it does not bring wins always and pro sports is ALL about winning in the end mostly. Having a long run is great for the players I am sure being together for this 4-5+ year run, but that is not the norm.
Schoen will be tooooslow if he steps onto a field again.
Lawler, also too old, and for me as a tax payer too expensive for four games a year.
These guys have little of no tread on their tires.
An era of change has started
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 20, 2024, 04:57:52 AMWith the emergence of Pokey we can jettison one of Schoen or Lawler. Backfill with another American for a significant sms savings.
Lawler makes 2 of the catches Pokey whiffed on tonight, bank it. Might have been the difference. Pokey shows promise, but so far he's had 1 good game and a bunch of nothingburgers. He may take years to get consistently good, who knows.
Not saying we keep Lawler, but it is something to consider when making comparisons.
I actually think our D played pretty good. We got robbed on quite a few penalties: Just made up stuff out of nowhere. The D still kept us in it. If the O could have done much of anything all night besides get 20-30Y drives for FGs, we would have had a shot. If the refs hadn't rigged the game, we would have had a great shot at a W.
Yes, the O was stinky much of the night and the reckless INT and dumb fumble also were the difference between winning and losing. But keep in mind this is an extremely good SSK D: like league top-3 D. Our O will fare better against weaker Ds like they did last week.
I think, in terms of actual Bomber performance, this L looks worse than it really is. Even Biggie, the favorite punching bag here, was racking up the DT stats and making plays. There was only one bad arm-tackle whiff I saw, and others were making the same mistake too.
The defense has played pretty well for most of the year. They were good in Regina. The reality is though, we were playing a guy with three CFL starts. Also worth mentioning that the Riders defense was better than ours on basically every statistical category and particularly along the defensive line was the play most noticeable. We need to find a way to get more pressure and to do that we're going to need to reallocate towards the line next year.
We had more success as a team with Lawler, Adams, Bailey, Wolitarsky, Demski at receiver which is probably a less top heavy way to allocate our dollars. It's really hard to spend top dollar on a QB and TWO import receivers.
BC and Sask are teams trending upwards whereas we are a team of aging veterans trending in the opposite direction. We are not a GC contender and will be fortunate ju#t to make the playoffs either in the West or via crossover to the East. Complacency from our management corps this season has brought us to where we are now and clearly other teams have gotten better whereas we have not. Yet, despite our poor play so far this season, there are two other teams worse than us, namely Edmonton and Hamilton and I really feel sorry for their fans.
We have a team with players that have carried us to four consecutive Cup appearances however some of these players are now past their best before date. We know who they are and there will be major changes come next season. We may win a few more games this season but will be lucky if we end up 9-9.
It was good while it lasted, but the gig is up and we now must face the reality that other teams have improved where we have regressed. Losing our top two receivers didn't help matters either and Zach clearly isn't the elite QB we've known and grown to love. He's also the highest paid QB in the league.
Yet, despite all of this we need to continue supporting this team as most loyal Winnipeg fans have done over the years of good and bad Bomber teams. We're not a bad team but we're just not the elite team we once were.
Bombers forever!
Bighill, though is the D QB but physical attributes are letting him down. Wilson is actually hiding Adam's let down a bit. Wilson is a beast!
Patterson sure made our secondary look like Swiss cheese. The blitz failed us mostly. Good run D for the most part.
Bombers got 100% robbed on the Nichols interception late in the 1st half.
Alexander is a NON factor. He is invisible.
Changes need to happen in these areas.
Zach has been scary inconsistent. Never mind his recent game physical attributes but is metal mistakes are puzzling and alarming. Don't have a capable replacement on the roster. Brown gone hurts big time.
Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on July 20, 2024, 01:54:35 PMBighill, though is the D QB but physical attributes are letting him down. Wilson is actually hiding Adam's let down a bit. Wilson is a beast!
Patterson sure made our secondary look like Swiss cheese. The blitz failed us mostly. Good run D for the most part.
Bombers got 100% robbed on the Nichols interception late in the 1st half.
Alexander is a NON factor. He is invisible.
Changes need to happen in these areas.
Zach has been scary inconsistent. Never mind his recent game physical attributes but is metal mistakes are puzzling and alarming. Don't have a capable replacement on the roster. Brown gone hurts big time.
Yes, and its been going on for over a year.
It's obvious he's no longer a top QB, but his experience & leadership get him close. I think we can still win with him, but we have to be firing on all cylinders and not shoot ourselves in the foot.
We have to dance with the one we brought, so we're committed to Zach this year. But I do think serious talks need to happen nextyear with him taking a step back in role, and big paycut.
I still think his leadership & preparation would be very valuable, but I also don't want to go with Strev as #1.
I think Zach would be a great coach, Bighill too.
We have Streveler so no... we don't have to commit to Zach this year.
Maybe we can find an NFL cut later in the season to replace Biggie or Alexander, setting us up for next year.
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 03:14:46 PMWe have Streveler so no... we don't have to commit to Zach this year.
Maybe we can find an NFL cut later in the season to replace Biggie or Alexander, setting us up for next year.
Strev has shown over & over he's a one trick pony. At best we could run them both 50-50.
Quote from: BomberFan73 on July 20, 2024, 03:22:14 PMStrev has shown over & over he's a one trick pony. At best we could run them both 50-50.
The question is... Is Stev better than Collaros right now? I'd say yes.
Is Streveler a top QB? Nope. Does he have some upside? Yup. Would giving him 8 games this season make him more ready to take over the team next year? Maybe. Would giving Collaros those 8 games make him any better? Not likely.
As much as we need to move on from the old guard, this is not in MOS DNA. He's loyal to a fault. We should have moved on from bighill last year when he was hurt and Sankey was available, but no, we chose to stay with an old dog, watch him limp through the playoffs and season and cost us a grey cup.
I don't think the 'mafia' has it in them to replace old vets. It will be up to the old vets to decide to retire before we move on and that's going to drive this team into a downward spiral, which if you haven't noticed, we are already in it.
Collaros has some guaranteed money for 2025. That's a problem. No way I'd believe Streveler is a better option and he's on a 1 year deal IIRC. Not much we can do about this at the moment.
At what point does MOS look to make other changes on the roster: Alexander, Bighill for example. We aren't far away from vet guaranteed dates. We don't necessarily need to cut them outright but we could rotate in others more often.
If the back ups aren't any good, then what is the succession plan?
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 20, 2024, 03:33:44 PMCollaros has some guaranteed money for 2025. That's a problem. No way I'd believe Streveler is a better option and he's on a 1 year deal IIRC.
C mon now, let's all be serious here for a second. Streveler is NOT a better option, not even close. His style of play is not sustainable, and even if it was, his passing game isn't adequate at the pro level. He's a short yardage running Qb, that's it. We had our Qb of the future and let him go. Guaranteed if we had Brown under centre, our offense is running a whole lot smoother. Think back to the Edmonton game last year that Collaros had us down 22-0 and brown came in and won the game for us. If that wasn't the cold hard slap in the face we needed to wake up, nothing is.
When Kelly comes back from his time out, Toronto will have arguably 2 QBs worthy of starting and only 1 football. Not sure of dukes contract status but I d be taking a run at getting him here next year.
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 03:25:46 PMThe question is... Is Stev better than Collaros right now? I'd say yes.
Is Streveler a top QB? Nope. Does he have some upside? Yup. Would giving him 8 games this season make him more ready to take over the team next year? Maybe. Would giving Collaros those 8 games make him any better? Not likely.
I think the answer is if we roll with just one, we'll likely not make PO's. We signed Strev to be that which Zach is not, and we need to use him more 100%. I don't get why we don't put him in more often on 2nd & short, and why we don't occasionally keep him in for that 1st down play in hurryup.
Also why aren't we doing more with them both on the field? If we're keeping that ace in our pocket, we might play it too late.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on July 20, 2024, 06:49:26 AMI Am not sure many of the old "timers" will be jettisoned until AFTER next season unless they truly want to retire or are so injured they can't play anymore. The HOME GREY CUP in 2025 is what I said they were truly gearing up for this season in the PRE-SEASON already. Not to write this year off that early, but next year is the golden nugget if you ask me. That is when the Bombers can pocket a nice stability fund hopefully. This season's first priority was setting up for next season I think in the bowels of PAS! ;)
If you are playing 10 Canadian starters and you can't find at least ONE BIG BULL DL guy, something seems off with that. There is little pressure up the middle on QB's and the run stopping game is not the best either. There was that 6'9" monster that Toronto let go....he would have fit the bill probably beyond a Stove even! :( They have flexibility, WHY NOT USE IT? Loyalty is nice, but it does not bring wins always and pro sports is ALL about winning in the end mostly. Having a long run is great for the players I am sure being together for this 4-5+ year run, but that is not the norm.
You guys have good Canadian Dlinemen, the problem is Lawson I'd injured and Smeckel isn't getting reps. Plus Hubert at DE is the steal of the draft.
Biggie does more than tackle, but he still tackles. Is he 2019 Biggie? Nope, not statistically. But he may actually be better as a play caller today than then. Is it time to platoon him? Yes. Is it time to move on? No.
We have a group of receivers that, when healthy, could be the best in the league. We have an oline that is just getting in sync and will be better, and some good ones in the pipeline.
You can't be the top of the league every year, $SMS and injuries prevent you from stacking a team and having reserves that are all veteran and ready to step in. So its draft/recruit and develop, and over the years we have been top of the league in that capacity, and end up feeding other teams our vets in FA.
O'Shea has a reputation for sticking with his guys, and that has as much positive as it has negative. You get more long term out of a player you support than one who knows the team can cut you after a bad game. I'm not saying ti is as black and white as that, but there is a dark grey side and a light grey side. Walters, the scouts and MOS all need to work on quality and continuity with the team. This is a challenging moment, injuries, rookies, new DC, struggling QB all add to the issues. But this management group hs shown they can find the way in the past, and there is no reason to think they cannot do so again.
We've won 2 games. One with Streveler when we took out Ottawa's starting QB in the first half. One with Collaros when we played our best game of the season and beat Calgary by 4.
What we are doing at QB is obviously not working, yet folks want to continue with Collaros anyway. Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome is insanity.
Quote from: BomberFan73 on July 20, 2024, 04:02:52 PMI think the answer is if we roll with just one, we'll likely not make PO's. We signed Strev to be that which Zach is not, and we need to use him more 100%. I don't get why we don't put him in more often on 2nd & short, and why we don't occasionally keep him in for that 1st down play in hurryup.
Also why aren't we doing more with them both on the field? If we're keeping that ace in our pocket, we might play it too late.
I don't see Strev. as Zach's future replacement but it's super disappointing how little they've used him this season, remembering back to 2019 it seemed he was involved in the offence a lot more and even had his own packages. When they re-signed him this past spring for very little money I would have thought it would have been with the promise to give him an opportunity to play more than 3rd down short yardage.
In 2019 with Lapo, Streveler had packages that extended after the SY plays to take advantage of tempo and the D having their jumbo package on. Streve makes the first down, and then they go right to the line, play precalled, and boom, effective play against a D that is not ready for it.
Having CS17 come in for a play and then exit gives the D time to recover change personnel, and prepare for the next set of downs.
Buck needs to go back to the 2019 playbook now that he has the 2019 QB corps back.
Hard no replacing Schoen or Lawler imo
Quote from: DM83 on July 20, 2024, 07:20:06 AMSchoen will be tooooslow if he steps onto a field again.
Lawler, also too old, and for me as a tax payer too expensive for four games a year.
These guys have little of no tread on their tires.
An era of change has started
Disagree all but change is coming, Schoen will be fine and Lawler is great when healthy.
Trouble in Bomberland but let's not get carried away
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 04:20:39 PMWe've won 2 games. One with Streveler when we took out Ottawa's starting QB in the first half. One with Collaros when we played our best game of the season and beat Calgary by 4.
What we are doing at QB is obviously not working, yet folks want to continue with Collaros anyway. Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome is insanity.
You can say that exact same thing about rolling Strev out there and expecting him to be a different QB than he's always been.
Quote from: Jesse on July 20, 2024, 05:42:03 PMYou can say that exact same thing about rolling Strev out there and expecting him to be a different QB than he's always been.
That's a fair point, but I'll still go with the hope that Strev could get better over the hope that Collaros will.
We live or die on Zach's success which will rely on BO and the health of our receivers and play of our O line. 8-10 is my bet. Would be 5-13 with Strev imo.
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 06:47:20 PMThat's a fair point, but I'll still go with the hope that Strev could get better over the hope that Collaros will.
Zach looked pretty good last weekend against CGY, which is the most bewildering thing. It seems to me his inconsistency could be mental health related, but the examination of a QB's mental fitness is not something that is likely to be evaluated anytime soon so there's no way to know if it's an issue.
I said after Lawler's injury we d be lucky to be 3-3 without Kenny and here we are 2-5, after being fleeced by the refs in Regina. So ya, we re going to struggle without Kenny and we are. We need him back ASAP to make a run at the third playoff spot.
Calgary collapsing in Montreal 2 weeks ago was huge for us, they have 2 games in hand but will lose to B.C. tonight so really only 1 game on us.
We need to go .500 the remaining games as finish no less than 8-13 to have an outside shot at a playoff spot, anything less and we re on the sidelines come playoff time
Kolo, Lofton, Thomas, Bighill and Alexander should be backups only or sit.
I wouldn't get rid of Collaros -- he's not playing well but I'm not sure how getting rid of him would help.
He needs to make less and we need to give him better line play and a better defense (which in the current configuration of talent means defensive line).
There's lots of ways we can do it but I would trade Lawler or Schoen for an upgrade on the defensive line in the off season. We need more than just that, but it's a good start.
CFL teams can be built quickly in free agency provided sms space is available. Stanley Bryant, Jermarcus Hardrick, Willie Jefferson, and Nic Demski are a few examples.
We need to get more four man pressure and we need some better offensive line play and we'll be back at the top of the division next year.
The biggest change is letting some of the new guys play vs the vets. Even if its a rotation.
Did Jones get any reps? Can Griffin play safety, can Cole play sam? we continuously let the vets away with mediocre plays that we would never allow a rookie.
Its not just about the vets play its about seeing what we need and have.
Using Streveler like Lapo did would go a long way to fixing the offense.
These are all the TD's Streveler has scored for the Bombers.
I've started this at the short yardage, step back and nail Dressler... there's another passing TD at 9:80 and then the last one as well.
I'm not sure that you have to "take out the deep balls", Streveler has pretty good touch and a strong arm when given the chance.
Will he hit every pass, will he find every open receiver? No, but no QB will. Pretty sure he'd hit more than Zach did last week. 20/31 for 266 and no TD's/1 int, with 9 going to your RB is not a good stat line.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 20, 2024, 07:50:12 PMZach looked pretty good last weekend against CGY, which is the most bewildering thing. It seems to me his inconsistency could be mental health related, but the examination of a QB's mental fitness is not something that is likely to be evaluated anytime soon so there's no way to know if it's an issue.
Sure bring up the only game this year that he's even looked competent. The only game he's thrown for a TD. I for one am not ready to wait another 6 games for him to have another good game.
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 10:22:32 PMSure bring up the only game this year that he's even looked competent. The only game he's thrown for a TD. I for one am not ready to wait another 6 games for him to have another good game.
[/quotQuote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 10:22:32 PMSure bring up the only game this year that he's even looked competent. The only game he's thrown for a TD. I for one am not ready to wait another 6 games for him to have another good game.
I am sort of leaning in your direction however I will wait until mid season (9 games) and then Zack is either back to being the Zack we know or it is time to move on and give Streveler a shot at being the starter. I think this year is more of less a write off so as long as we are looking toward the future maybe time let a few Vets take a seat and see what the youngsters can accomplish.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 20, 2024, 08:41:02 PMI wouldn't get rid of Collaros -- he's not playing well but I'm not sure how getting rid of him would help.
He needs to make less and we need to give him better line play and a better defense (which in the current configuration of talent means defensive line).
There's lots of ways we can do it but I would trade Lawler or Schoen for an upgrade on the defensive line in the off season. We need more than just that, but it's a good start.
CFL teams can be built quickly in free agency provided sms space is available. Stanley Bryant, Jermarcus Hardrick, Willie Jefferson, and Nic Demski are a few examples.
We need to get more four man pressure and we need some better offensive line play and we'll be back at the top of the division next year.
lol.you would trade injured players who are one year deals? Someone is going to give us an asset for the opportunity to rehab Schoen?
Quote from: Jesse on July 20, 2024, 11:40:39 PMlol.you would trade injured players who are one year deals? Someone is going to give us an asset for the opportunity to rehab Schoen?
Poor choice of words on my part. I just mean use the salary currently invested. We will have the opportunity to do so in either case.
Quote from: Pete on July 20, 2024, 08:45:56 PMThe biggest change is letting some of the new guys play vs the vets. Even if its a rotation.
Did Jones get any reps? Can Griffin play safety, can Cole play sam? we continuously let the vets away with mediocre plays that we would never allow a rookie.
Its not just about the vets play its about seeing what we need and have.
I agree in part at least. I think the receivers are the primary issue at the moment. To that end we need to find an import that will be more productive than Clercius as a starter. In theory, Lawler may be starting next week, so that would resolve that issue.
Rotating some combination of DB's with Alexander should be easy. Hallett might be a better option at this point but the very least getting some reps.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 20, 2024, 08:41:02 PMI wouldn't get rid of Collaros -- he's not playing well but I'm not sure how getting rid of him would help.
He needs to make less and we need to give him better line play and a better defense (which in the current configuration of talent means defensive line).
There's lots of ways we can do it but I would trade Lawler or Schoen for an upgrade on the defensive line in the off season. We need more than just that, but it's a good start.
CFL teams can be built quickly in free agency provided sms space is available. Stanley Bryant, Jermarcus Hardrick, Willie Jefferson, and Nic Demski are a few examples.
We need to get more four man pressure and we need some better offensive line play and we'll be back at the top of the division next year.
Hard pass on those trade ideas
Quote from: M.O.A.B. on July 20, 2024, 08:21:22 PMKolo, Lofton, Thomas, Bighill and Alexander should be backups only or sit.
Great way not to win another game
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 10:22:32 PMSure bring up the only game this year that he's even looked competent. The only game he's thrown for a TD. I for one am not ready to wait another 6 games for him to have another good game.
It comes down to consistency, Zach started slow, missed a game through injury and looked like he was back on track against CGY, only to derail again last night. The last 2 years he's won more than he's lost by far, but in his losses he's been very erratic. It's like there's a switch going on and off in his head.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 21, 2024, 04:54:05 AMIt comes down to consistency, Zach started slow, missed a game through injury and looked like he was back on track against CGY, only to derail again last night. The last 2 years he's won more than he's lost by far, but in his losses he's been very erratic. It's like there's a switch going on and off in his head.
You are going to have to unpack that statement.
Since Collaros arrived in 2019 following the trade deadline that year, he has taken the Bombers to 4 straight Grey Cups, was MOP in 2021 and 2022, led the team to records of 15 and 3 in 2022 and 14 and 4 in 2023, had 37 TDs and 13 Interceptions in 2022 and 33 TDs and 15 Interceptions in 2023. He led the league in QB efficiency in 2023 and was 2nd in efficiency in 2022.
If you are only talking about 2024, then with the "erratic" comment you have to consider some pretty monumental changes to the team between the end of 2023 and the start of 2024. Again, new players, defecting players, released players and injuries have played into the season we have experienced thus far.
To me, it's a bit unfair to say Zach started "slow" given those circumstances and the term "erratic" does not take into consideration those same circumstances.
My guess is that Zach will get substantially better if the new/replacement players can play at, or close to, a Grey Cup competing level. In other words, I don't believe Zach is the problem or is slow or erractic. Rather the rest of the team now has to catch up to him.
Quote from: ModAdmin on July 21, 2024, 06:29:24 AMYou are going to have to unpack that statement.
Since Collaros arrived in 2019 following the trade deadline that year, he has taken the Bombers to 4 straight Grey Cups, was MOP in 2021 and 2022, led the team to records of 15 and 3 in 2022 and 14 and 4 in 2023, had 37 TDs and 13 Interceptions in 2022 and 33 TDs and 15 Interceptions in 2023. He led the league in QB efficiency in 2023 and was 2nd in efficiency in 2022.
If you are only talking about 2024, then with the "erratic" comment you have to consider some pretty monumental changes to the team between the end of 2023 and the start of 2024. Again, new players, defecting players, released players and injuries have played into the season we have experienced thus far.
To me, it's a bit unfair to say Zach started "slow" given those circumstances and the term "erratic" does not take into consideration those same circumstances.
My guess is that Zach will get substantially better if the new/replacement players can play at, or close to, a Grey Cup competing level. In other words, I don't believe Zach is the problem or is slow or erractic. Rather the rest of the team now has to catch up to him.
Yes as I said, I'm only referring to Zach's play in the last 2 seasons. It started with the first blowout to BC last season at home when he couldn't generate any offence and continued with upset losses to Ottawa and Hamilton, both teams forced to start rookie QB's in Crum and Powell. The same inconsistency was present in the Elks game Dru Brown stepped in and saved against Tre Ford.
As for this season, Zach has only played one decent game, you can blame other aspects of the team or point the finger at Jake Thomas as some will, but it's pretty clear he is not performing at the level of consistency he's established in the past. Can't really point the finger at anyone else in the loss to Sask. this weekend, he was unable to locate and hit any other receiver other than Brady coming out of the backfield with any consistency. To put it simply he did not generate enough offence to win that game which has been a problem that's also been evident in the last 2 GC losses.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 21, 2024, 04:54:05 AMIt comes down to consistency, Zach started slow, missed a game through injury and looked like he was back on track against CGY, only to derail again last night. The last 2 years he's won more than he's lost by far, but in his losses he's been very erratic. It's like there's a switch going on and off in his head.
Agree. When he's right he's arguably the best in the league. When he's off he's a pick-machine. We desperately need him at his best for the rest of this season.
Quote from: J5V on July 21, 2024, 02:57:40 PMAgree. When he's right he's arguably the best in the league. When he's off he's a pick-machine. We desperately need him at his best for the rest of this season.
Same thing has happened to lots of QB's. It means they are old. Int's are like the canary in the coal mine. The only thing Zach can do now is accept that he cannot play the way he always has and make adjustments. He can be effective, very good at times, but will not dominate anymore.
I had hoped Bighill was going to retire after last season. He was obviously slowing down. Worse this year. Ditto for Alexander. Both are negatives on the D squad.
O line is an issue. Collaros is too slow (and maybe too stubborn) to evade any rush. When he does not have time he can look like a rookie with terrible reads and awful throws.
What was being hyped as possibly the best offense of all time leading into the season is looking pretty biased at this point in time. Losing 2 of the best receivers in the league doesn't help but the above issues have exasperated the injuries.
I suspect we dont see any real changes to the vets until after the BC game. Very likely the Bombers are sitting at 2 at 2 - 7 and going into the bye licking their wounds after being crushed by the Lions.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 21, 2024, 02:45:41 PMYes as I said, I'm only referring to Zach's play in the last 2 seasons. It started with the first blowout to BC last season at home when he couldn't generate any offence and continued with upset losses to Ottawa and Hamilton, both teams forced to start rookie QB's in Crum and Powell. The same inconsistency was present in the Elks game Dru Brown stepped in and saved against Tre Ford.
As for this season, Zach has only played one decent game, you can blame other aspects of the team or point the finger at Jake Thomas as some will, but it's pretty clear he is not performing at the level of consistency he's established in the past. Can't really point the finger at anyone else in the loss to Sask. this weekend, he was unable to locate and hit any other receiver other than Brady coming out of the backfield with any consistency. To put it simply he did not generate enough offence to win that game which has been a problem that's also been evident in the last 2 GC losses.
I, 100%, agree that Zach is not getting the results he has had in previous years. I just think you put too much of the responsibility on him as opposed to the other factors that clearly affect the functioning of the offence.
Quote from: ModAdmin on July 21, 2024, 04:22:10 PMI, 100%, agree that Zach is not getting the results he has had in previous years. I just think you put too much of the responsibility on him as opposed to the other factors that clearly affect the functioning of the offence.
Maybe so but really hard to tell when the QB is stuck in the mud.
Getting Lawler back and hopefully Whitehead into the lineup will be a massive upgrade to what's currently on the field. Inserting 2 vet receivers posing immediate threats to the defense into our lineup will do everyone a world of good, especially Collaros
Did we keep Collaros one year to long because of GC next year?? Brown looks decent in Ottawa with a younger team. BC and Adams look strong plus BC fans do not travel well. Every team goes through this with an ageing team. Time to rebuild or keep vets one more year in hopes of getting into the GC??
Zach will rebound as we get healthy on O.
Quote from: dd on July 21, 2024, 05:23:24 PMGetting Lawler back and hopefully Whitehead into the lineup will be a massive upgrade to what's currently on the field. Inserting 2 vet receivers posing immediate threats to the defense into our lineup will do everyone a world of good, especially Collaros
If Collaros can get his timing with Lucky and Kenny sync'd up fast. It takes time to do, and even though he has history with them, they will be different players than they were before.
Quote from: Blueforlife on July 21, 2024, 05:58:03 PMZach will rebound as we get healthy on O.
https://x.com/Wpg_BlueBombers/status/1814522509502378124?t=EZ7hAU-SFkeRSH1148n7nQ&s=19
Look Zac is a great player. Period. Zac has thrown up passes, and he is expecting receivers to make a play. My quarterback always said, if the receiver could not make a play on a 50-50 ball, he would get his grandma to go out and catch his passes. He wasn't serious, I don't think, but the receivers got the message.
Look we have has had fluke injuries. In the last two years we have lost the last two Grey Cups on the last play of the game. We got injuries, or a fluke last minute field goal, to have a last play win. Is that why the encouraged Ritchie Hall to step down? Otherwise we were would blow the doors off teams. Is Bighill too slow? Nope he is a step behind. I tell you what it's between him and sanky, in who I would rather have behind me in a foxhole.
Bighill will step away from playing one day, and become our defensive co-ordinator.
Mr. Alexander should be benched and put in one of the brothers. I don't believe Alexander actually wants to be involved in contact. I do need glasses though, so take it for what it's worth. Again, no grey Cup is awarded in July.
Once we get a couple more receivers, a def. Tackle, an offensive linemen, and a defensive coordinator, we will be fine. If you can't stomach the Bombers, wait till the jets field an aHL team and tell you it's an NHL team
Quote from: DM83 on July 21, 2024, 08:07:04 PMLook Zac is a great player. Period. Zac has thrown up passes, and he is expecting receivers to make a play. My quarterback always said, if the receiver could not make a play on a 50-50 ball, he would get his grandma to go out and catch his passes. He wasn't serious, I don't think, but the receivers got the message.
The problem isn't Zach throwing up 50/50 balls and trusting his receivers, it's receivers being wide open and Zach underthrowing them or simply throwing straight at the defender instead.
Quote from: theaardvark on July 21, 2024, 06:00:35 PMIf Collaros can get his timing with Lucky and Kenny sync'd up fast. It takes time to do, and even though he has history with them, they will be different players than they were before.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Zach never played live snaps with Lucky. Lucky was already relegated to backup or PR in favor of Grant when Zach was brought in.
(Sorry, little nitpick on Lucky; but yes, 100% Kenny should gel immediately with Zach when he comes back.)
Quote from: bluebeard on July 21, 2024, 05:43:06 PMDid we keep Collaros one year to long because of GC next year?? Brown looks decent in Ottawa with a younger team.
I think it's a wash. If Dru was our QB right now, he'd probably look a lot like Zach. Our OL is maybe about as good as OTT's right now (i.e. mid-range). Our (healthy) Rs are about the same, or maybe OTT has a slight advantage. Dru has made mistakes, and also has problems with pressure.
That said, Zach is costing us a lot more $$ than Dru is costing OTT. So if they are a wash, maybe OTT did come out ahead. Plus, Zach has '24 and maybe '25 left. Dru has until '30 (at least). However, if I'm in a GC tomorrow, I'd rather have Zach than Dru!!
Quote from: Ducky on July 21, 2024, 03:33:52 PMWhat was being hyped as possibly the best offense of all time leading into the season is looking pretty biased at this point in time. Losing 2 of the best receivers in the league doesn't help but the above issues have exasperated the injuries.
I don't think anyone hyped WPG as the best O. What was hyped was WPG had
the best receiving corps and RB. And they did until by week 4 two of the top-paid CFL Rs were 6GIRd (even though the on-field production didn't show it).
Everyone and their dog knew our OL was going to have major problems: forced to start Dobson maybe a year early; losing Yoshi after his MOOL year and switching to retread Lofton. No one hyped our OL.
And as Riderfans Forum will remind everyone, Zach has never been great with a leaky OL. He's great when protected. Remember all the games in prior years when our OL kept him completely clean?! Holy smokes those days seem far in the rearview mirror.
Zach is not the only problem. And also almost certainly not the major problem. He just gets most of the blame, as QBs are wont to do.
Quote from: Jesse on July 21, 2024, 10:51:28 PMThe problem isn't Zach throwing up 50/50 balls and trusting his receivers, it's receivers being wide open and Zach underthrowing them or simply throwing straight at the defender instead.
I don't know what games you're watching, but our Rs haven't been "wide open" all season. Not even close. They have to fight and claw for every single catch. That's part of the problem.
Our schemes are weak and not working, and/or our Rs either aren't executing or are too slow.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 22, 2024, 07:35:15 AMI don't think anyone hyped WPG as the best O. What was hyped was WPG had the best receiving corps and RB. And they did until by week 4 two of the top-paid CFL Rs were 6GIRd (even though the on-field production didn't show it).
Everyone and their dog knew our OL was going to have major problems: forced to start Dobson maybe a year early; losing Yoshi after his MOOL year and switching to retread Lofton. No one hyped our OL.
And as Riderfans Forum will remind everyone, Zach has never been great with a leaky OL. He's great when protected. Remember all the games in prior years when our OL kept him completely clean?! Holy smokes those days seem far in the rearview mirror.
Zach is not the only problem. And also almost certainly not the major problem. He just gets most of the blame, as QBs are wont to do.
So, if the Bombers could ever sneak into the playoffs, the refs tend to put away their whistles and holding calls don't happen much. That is when Zach might be at his best. If we could sneak in there and be healthy, we could yet make some noise.
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 20, 2024, 10:22:32 PMSure bring up the only game this year that he's even looked competent. The only game he's thrown for a TD. I for one am not ready to wait another 6 games for him to have another good game.
Agreed. Outside of one good game, he's been consistently terrible. It's baffling to see not only how poorly Collaros has played so far this season, but how there's been a glaring lack of adjustments to take pressure off him.
These unacceptable performances with the offense - not just the QB - cannot continue.
Even with injuries and new guys etc, I actually think our roster is fine as it is. Not saying we can't get stronger in areas and we will with Lawler and Lawson coming back hopefully soon. But overall, our D has been better than expected and is holding offenses to reasonable scores that would allow a competent offense to simply outscore them (doesn't work when we only score 9).
On offense, our receiving core is at least serviceable if not dangerous as is, with Wilson and Demski (when the ball isn't punched out), and our OL is about the same - average and getting better compared to the start of the season.
It's Zach. Love the guy, but something is up. My medium term solution is a sports psychiatrist and I'm not even joking.
Quote from: blue_or_die on July 22, 2024, 03:52:42 PMEven with injuries and new guys etc, I actually think our roster is fine as it is. Not saying we can't get stronger in areas and we will with Lawler and Lawson coming back hopefully soon. But overall, our D has been better than expected and is holding offenses to reasonable scores that would allow a competent offense to simply outscore them (doesn't work when we only score 9).
On offense, our receiving core is at least serviceable if not dangerous as is, with Wilson and Demski (when the ball isn't punched out), and our OL is about the same - average and getting better compared to the start of the season.
It's Zach. Love the guy, but something is up. My medium term solution is a sports psychiatrist and I'm not even joking.
T Swifty's fault...
Quote from: blue_or_die on July 22, 2024, 03:52:42 PMEven with injuries and new guys etc, I actually think our roster is fine as it is. Not saying we can't get stronger in areas and we will with Lawler and Lawson coming back hopefully soon. But overall, our D has been better than expected and is holding offenses to reasonable scores that would allow a competent offense to simply outscore them (doesn't work when we only score 9).
Yes, given the injury issues, our D is better than expected. Even good enough to win most games. But I wanted to say, can you imagine what our D would look like if we could get big pressure with 4? Imagine if we had a guy like that #73 in CGY, who was hosing BC most of the Sunday game. And Dequoy.
We're actually really close... a couple of puzzle pieces can put us back on top. Unfortunately for us, these things are likely a pipe dream with our SMS problems, and with the "Mafia Mantra" of "no in-season upgrades!".
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 23, 2024, 04:16:39 AMYes, given the injury issues, our D is better than expected. Even good enough to win most games. But I wanted to say, can you imagine what our D would look like if we could get big pressure with 4? Imagine if we had a guy like that #73 in CGY, who was hosing BC most of the Sunday game. And Dequoy.
We're actually really close... a couple of puzzle pieces can put us back on top. Unfortunately for us, these things are likely a pipe dream with our SMS problems, and with the "Mafia Mantra" of "no in-season upgrades!".
Did you hear Wally Buono's halftime interview? He was asked about the successes he's had over the years and how he was able to be so successful. One of the things he alluded to was developing their own players and gave praise to his scouting staff. I'm not a big Wally fan but you have to listen when a guy like that tells you his key to success.
The elephant in the room with Zach is his age. Keep in mind we got Zach when he was 31 and two months. He's now a month shy of 36. Those are the prime football years for a QB often where experience and physical abilities culminate.
Seeing as we have some die-hard TV sleuths on here there is one thing I'd be interested in reviewing with Collaros and that is foot speed. For QBs, it's the lower body that often goes first. It's possible Zach is at the point in his career where he needs to reinvent for the final couple seasons, turning into a more pocket style passer with reads and precision, or he'll struggle trying to continue to play that allusive more mobile game that he's used over the course of his career. If so, I think he can do it but not all QBs do. And some transition better than others.
To be clear, it's not all on Zach. The team around him is less talented but it's not only that.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 23, 2024, 01:12:32 PMThe elephant in the room with Zach is his age. Keep in mind we got Zach when he was 31 and two months. He's now a month shy of 36. Those are the prime football years for a QB often where experience and physical abilities culminate.
Seeing as we have some die-hard TV sleuths on here there is one thing I'd be interested in reviewing with Collaros and that is foot speed. For QBs, it's the lower body that often goes first. It's possible Zach is at the point in his career where he needs to reinvent for the final couple seasons, turning into a more pocket style passer with reads and precision, or he'll struggle trying to continue to play that allusive more mobile game that he's used over the course of his career. If so, I think he can do it but not all QBs do. And some transition better than others.
To be clear, it's not all on Zach. The team around him is less talented but it's not only that.
Someone reminded me about the thorax injury that Zach suffered that kept him out a game or two. That may very well be hindering his throwing and athleticism overall. As he recovers from that I expect we'll see him playing better.
Quote from: J5V on July 23, 2024, 06:33:17 PMSomeone reminded me about the thorax injury that Zach suffered that kept him out a game or two. That may very well be hindering his throwing and athleticism overall. As he recovers from that I expect we'll see him playing better.
He had his only good game after the injury.
Quote from: Jesse on July 23, 2024, 07:31:23 PMHe had his only good game after the injury.
This. Whatever's ailing Collaros goes beyond the physical, IMO.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on July 23, 2024, 07:50:23 PMThis. Whatever's ailing Collaros goes beyond the physical, IMO.
Maybe but he's only played 2 games since the injury.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 23, 2024, 08:48:06 PMMaybe but he's only played 2 games since the injury.
But he was also bad before the injury.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 23, 2024, 08:48:06 PMMaybe but he's only played 2 games since the injury.
He's been out of sorts all season outside of one game. I don't think his thorax injury plays much of a factor, if at all.
Quote from: Jesse on July 23, 2024, 08:50:53 PMBut he was also bad before the injury.
Yes but the comment was that he's only played 1 good game SINCE the injury.
It's the t swift effect. She drains the talent from people she wants to. She leaves Kelce alone but anyone else - she feeds on them to make herself stronger.
Zach is a victim - I don't think there is anything that can be done.
Quote from: J5V on July 23, 2024, 06:33:17 PMSomeone reminded me about the thorax injury that Zach suffered that kept him out a game or two. That may very well be hindering his throwing and athleticism overall. As he recovers from that I expect we'll see him playing better.
Zach is having trouble with the same problems every game, pre- and post-injury. Even going back into last season. So I'd say the thorax thing (if it was a thing rather than an excuse to start Strev 1 game for a look-see) is irrelevant.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on July 22, 2024, 01:43:41 PMAgreed. Outside of one good game, he's been consistently terrible. It's baffling to see not only how poorly Collaros has played so far this season, but how there's been a glaring lack of adjustments to take pressure off him.
These unacceptable performances with the offense - not just the QB - cannot continue.
He actually like the Zach of yesteryears in Hamilton and Regina. He is reverting to his poor era of his career.
I agree Buck is not helping out with proper adjustments.
Bring in Chris Jones to be DC! ;) Tank the season to get the first round pick! :D
GC OR BUST next year at home! :)
Wallace is the future at RG. Start him now.
Eli should've been the starting centre.
Start Schmekel or Samson till Lawson comes back.
Continue to rotate Hubert heavily. He has really good contain skills.
Give the younger Hallett a shot at Safety.
Let Clercius be, Zack and Streveler have been off. Lucky should be replacing Johnson.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on July 25, 2024, 05:40:37 PMWallace is the future at RG. Start him now.
Eli should've been the starting centre.
Start Schmekel or Samson till Lawson comes back.
Continue to rotate Hubert heavily. He has really good contain skills.
Give the younger Hallett a shot at Safety.
Let Clercius be, Zack and Streveler have been off. Lucky should be replacing Johnson.
Lets get the starting NATs up to 14... ;)
Quote from: theaardvark on July 25, 2024, 05:57:39 PMLets get the starting NATs up to 14... ;)
DO I HEAR 15? 15 15 15... SOLD FOR 14! :D
Quote from: theaardvark on July 25, 2024, 05:57:39 PMLets get the starting NATs up to 14... ;)
Your Canadian talent isn't the problem.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on July 25, 2024, 05:40:37 PMWallace is the future at RG. Start him now.
Give the younger Hallett a shot at Safety.
Wallace over Neufeld?! Now I know you're just a left-coaster trying to tank my team!!
As for Nick Hallett at FS... he's already dressed and can sub any time for BA37, so ya, I'd get Nick involved in certain packages (obvious passing downs) and have him be our Dequoy. However, the SSK@MTL game tonight showed why a Dequoy can sometimes be useless: when it's all run and short pass. The wood-laying run stop / support BA37 can do is precisely what MTL needed in that game... not a skinny, fast Dequoy! The beauty is, we can have both!